<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1521</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/17/99 7:11:11 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, December 17 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1521<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Starship re-payments<BR>
Re: independent Terran invention of jump drive? sure<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1502<BR>
OT US Gun Control C**P on TML<BR>
Re Drugs and States<BR>
Re: independent Terran invention of jump drive? sure<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
Re: Ethnic Confusions<BR>
Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
Re: Starship re-payments<BR>
Re: Starship re-payments<BR>
Re: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:26:57 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship re-payments<BR>
<BR>
>Michel Vaillancourt wrote:<BR>
> How are starship payments figured? In the book it says (from memory...)<BR>
its<BR>
> 20% down payment plus 1/240th every month for 480 months giving a total<BR>
> return of 240% to the bank.<BR>
<BR>
    Are these paid on the same world as the bank which funded the loan is?<BR>
If your Free Trader is away speculating from the ships/banks homeworld and<BR>
there isn't enough money in the bank are you automatically assumed to have<BR>
skipped? Can the original loan be used to finance another ship if you want<BR>
to trade up? I'm glad I always play scouts.<BR>
    Jim L.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:35:02 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: independent Terran invention of jump drive? sure<BR>
<BR>
>From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net><BR>
<BR>
>I think he's going to make an excellent addition to<BR>
>the order.>>--Glenn><BR>
<BR>
>Does this mean that it is now legal for me to:<BR>
>1) Assert that figthers are just SDBs stripped of <BR>
>long term life support<BR>
>2) Jump is a state not a space<BR>
>3) Jump, Stutterwarp, Wormholes, Gates & Psionic <BR>
>Transfers are just different implementation of the <BR>
>same underlying principle.<BR>
>4) distribute assorted fragments from my notes on <BR>
>Traveller/Galactica, Traveller/Dune & Traveller/UFO<BR>
>5) Missiles are allowed as much accelleration as you <BR>
>wish to build into them<BR>
<BR>
No, sorry, heretics meet down the hall.  This is<BR>
templars/illuminati.  You're welcome to join both<BR>
groups, as long as you can sometimes hold<BR>
diametrically opposite positions in your mind<BR>
simultaneously.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:48:30 +0100<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1502<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> From my POV, I don't think that D&D3 will be a bad thing for the <BR>
> industry.  I think it will shake things up a bit, but anything that gets <BR>
> people into the hobby is good for the entire hobby.  Hence, products like <BR>
> GURPS Lite and "entry level" games (like the $10 D&D and Alternity boxed <BR>
> sets) are great tools for bringing people into the industry.<BR>
>_________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Exactly my thoughts. It wont really hurt the established RPG Producers, as <BR>
their market isn t really newbies, but more seasoned gamers. D&D always was <BR>
a newbies game, a way to get into the hobby.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 00:45:16 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: OT US Gun Control C**P on TML<BR>
<BR>
<RANT><BR>
<BR>
PLEASE TAKE THIS IRRELEVANT CYCLIC ARGUMENT OFF THE TML!<BR>
<BR>
*No-one* here is going to change their opinion.<BR>
<BR>
You've fought this flame war at least three times this year alone and <BR>
no-one has changed their opinion yet to my knowledge.<BR>
<BR>
It's ****ing irrelevant to non-US TML-readers in most cases and, to <BR>
be frank, tedious and repetitive.<BR>
<BR>
I accept and respect that US Citizen's feel that they need a <BR>
constitutional right to carry lethal force and to some extents use it <BR>
on each other. I also accept that some US citizen's disagree with <BR>
this position.<BR>
<BR>
BUT THIS LIST IS ABOUT *TRAVELLER*, A SCIENCE FICTION RPG IN THE FAR <BR>
FUTURE SET IN A FEUDAL EMPIRE SPANNING PARSECS OF SPACE. IT ISN'T <BR>
ABOUT CURRENT US CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES.<BR>
<BR>
And don't try and hide it with an tenuous ObTrav because that's just <BR>
a veiled excuse to get on your high horse and smugly hide behind the <BR>
lists' raison d'etre.<BR>
<BR>
WHY NOT GO AND START YOUR OWN LIST ON ONELIST or EGROUPS AND FLAME <BR>
EACH OTHER THERE? THEN YOU CAN ENJOY YOUR TROLLING AND PRE-EMPTIVE <BR>
STRIKES WITHOUT BORING THE REST OF US AND WASTING THE BANDWIDTH HERE.<BR>
<BR>
I respect your right to bear arms as a decision of your democracy. <BR>
Please respect this lists' reason for existence and keep this <BR>
argument off here. You're beyond the scope of this list.<BR>
<BR>
</RANT><BR>
<BR>
That feels better ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
                        MiB - Marines in Battledress<BR>
    "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"<BR>
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:56:24 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Drugs and States<BR>
<BR>
>>The US does *not* need one system, for anything below the federal level.  We<BR>
>>are, supposedly,  a union of states - not one overbearing federal state.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, watch what will happen if one of your states makes drugs legal, and<BR>
>another one doesn't...<BR>
<BR>
A) been there... Alaska decriminalized Marijuanna in the 70's. Net effect?<BR>
lots of people smoked lots of local dope.<BR>
<BR>
B) Drugs are federally regulated, and so anyone who smoked dope could still<BR>
be popped by the FBI or BATF or DEA, but not local cops nor Alaska State<BR>
Troopers.<BR>
<BR>
Net result? A lot of kids who got hold of dope either from their folks, or<BR>
after 18, found out that they had major problems if they tried to deal with<BR>
the feds as prospective employees. Lots of dope-heads on public assistance.<BR>
Cheap Marijuanna ($20 an Oz!)<BR>
<BR>
Note: Alaska's decriminalization measure legalized up to 4 oz in the home,<BR>
and 1 oz on the person, and no more than 1 plant, no more than 1 bag per<BR>
oz. It was not leagal to buy, sell, or publically smoke, nor to operate a<BR>
vehicle while under the influence of, marijuanna. If you got caught with<BR>
more by a local cop, the usual procedure was to be polite and cooperative,<BR>
and you usually walked away with half your stash, or the legal limit, which<BR>
ever was less. But, if the feds found it, you went to jail. A few cases<BR>
were prosecuted because Social Security persons doing an inspection found<BR>
marijuanna, called in the DEA, and federal charges resulted. The 15+ years<BR>
of "Non-criminal" marijuanna ended the same way they began: with a public<BR>
referendum. And, now, it runs $20 an eighth.<BR>
<BR>
nb: oz refers to Ounce, rather than to the city of Oz or to Australia.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:03:43 +0000<BR>
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: independent Terran invention of jump drive? sure<BR>
<BR>
At 04:35 PM 12/17/99 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>><snip><BR>
><BR>
>No, sorry, heretics meet down the hall.  This is<BR>
>templars/illuminati.  You're welcome to join both<BR>
>groups, as long as you can sometimes hold<BR>
>diametrically opposite positions in your mind<BR>
>simultaneously.<BR>
><BR>
>--Glenn<BR>
>__________________________________________________<BR>
>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
>Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
>Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
20 years a systems programmer for MVS, VM & VSE: I can do so many differnet<BR>
things at once it scares the &^%&^ out of my wife.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:48:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net><BR>
><BR>
>>Woodstock was the event where the brown acid was bad.  Now I'm<BR>
>>showing my age -- I don't recall who made the announcement (it was<BR>
>>one of the performers, in a very famous film clip), nor exactly what<BR>
>>the brown acid did (it probably made you really sick -- vomiting and<BR>
>>hallucinating at the same time).<BR>
><BR>
> I'm way too young to remember this first hand, but it probably wasn't making<BR>
> anybody sick. The physical effects of LSD, even when it's "bad" aren't<BR>
> terribly impressive.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, because the "effective dose" of LSD is *so* small,<BR>
most of the folks producing it "got away with" simply *appalling* lab<BR>
technique. Most acid contained impurities that would have been *fatal*<BR>
if the required dose was anywhere *near* that of most other drugs. <BR>
<BR>
So it's quite possible that the "brown acid" had so *really* nasty<BR>
contaminants, or had *gotten* contaminated by something nasty.<BR>
<BR>
> However, if I recall my Woodstock lore, and it's been about a decade since<BR>
> last I read up on it, the brown acid was thought to be causing bad trips. It<BR>
> probably wasn't the "fault" of the acid though, it's much more likely it was<BR>
> simply the environment that was freaking people out.<BR>
<BR>
Also possible.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:58:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Michel Vaillancourt wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>         Hi, Leonard....<BR>
>>         Along the same lines was remarked that the tent it was kept in on<BR>
>> the road was a camel-hair tent-like arrangement...  add a warm desert wind<BR>
>> and that structure would have been the next best thing to a Van DeGraff<BR>
>> generator.  <BR>
><BR>
> So it, what, you touch it and you're rendered in 3D...no, no, wait that<BR>
> would be a JESSE DeGraff generator. Sorry, my bad!<BR>
<BR>
Sounds painful (and messy) to me! (hint, check the *other* definition<BR>
of "render")<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:00:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ethnic Confusions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> This discussion points out one of the weaker points in "Traveller<BR>
> sociology" -- the assumption that the Vilani, Zhodani, etc. all lack the<BR>
> genetic, phenotypical, linguistic, and cultural diversity of the Solomani,<BR>
> because small numbers were transplanted while the Solomani had a somehow<BR>
> fuller gene pool to draw on. This is totally indefensible on a linguistic<BR>
> and cultural ground, I'm willing to fight to the bitter end; on the<BR>
> genetic and biological side, I'll defer to more versed phys anthro types<BR>
> here, but from what I understand there's no real support for that either.<BR>
<BR>
Since they are all descended from a more limited gene pool, the odds<BR>
*do* favor loss of any number of genes purely thru genetic drift.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:54:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
>> Ok, with *that* description I remember it. I agree, it was *just* the<BR>
>> serial number.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Which means it was discovered when the warehouse changed hands and a<BR>
>> *complete* inventory was done. Here's a crate with an unreadable serial<BR>
>> number. And the list of items has one item not checked off. <BR>
><BR>
> And just when will the United States government entity in charge of that<BR>
> facility do a *complete* inventory?  <BR>
<BR>
> It probably does a periodic audit, but a complete inventory will only<BR>
> take place if it's found necessary to go to the trouble and expense,<BR>
> like if evidence of pilfering or other misappropriation has occurred<BR>
> (like the Smithsonian's National Gallery of Art found a few years ago).<BR>
<BR>
As I noted, a *complete* inventory will almost certainly take place<BR>
when the facility gets turned over to another entity. Not necessarily<BR>
*every* time responsibility changes hands, as even some bureaucrats are<BR>
too trusting for their own good. But sooner or later...<BR>
<BR>
One possibility is when the UN becomes the *real* world government. Or<BR>
rather, at whatever point after that they start consolidating intel<BR>
agencies. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:05:00 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
At 03:01 PM 12/17/99 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>I've written a space combat game the history of which has combined USA and<BR>
>Canada into the Union of North America.  How would Canadians feal about<BR>
>that?  Americans?  Would it help that in 2080 the president-elect from<BR>
>Toronto gives a "before the decade is out" speech<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
        I presume there was an invasion?  I can't see it happening<BR>
voluntarily...  Most Canadians are very quick to say they aren't Americans....<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:07:30 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
At 02:23 PM 12/17/99 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Eric Henry wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I've written a space combat game the history of which has combined USA and<BR>
>> Canada into the Union of North America.  How would Canadians feal about<BR>
>> that?  Americans?  Would it help that in 2080 the president-elect from<BR>
>> Toronto gives a "before the decade is out" speech<BR>
><BR>
>Well, this Canadian has no problem with that. But I don't know how all<BR>
>you Americans would feel about becoming the eleventh province!<BR>
><BR>
>-- <BR>
>Erwin Fritz<BR>
<BR>
        ROFLAMO....<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	"Reality Error in Progress....<BR>
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:<BR>
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"<BR>
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:<BR>
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:38:27 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
On 12/17/1999 20:05, Michel Vaillancourt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 03:01 PM 12/17/99 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>> I've written a space combat game the history of which has combined USA and<BR>
>> Canada into the Union of North America.  How would Canadians feal about<BR>
>> that?  Americans?  Would it help that in 2080 the president-elect from<BR>
>> Toronto gives a "before the decade is out" speech<BR>
>> <BR>
> <BR>
> I presume there was an invasion?  I can't see it happening<BR>
> voluntarily...  Most Canadians are very quick to say they aren't Americans....<BR>
<BR>
Unless sometime in the 21st century, the Parti Quebecois actually succeeds<BR>
in their separation referendum. The Maritimes, cut off from the rest of<BR>
Canada and with a terrible economic situation, petition to join the USA, as<BR>
do the western provinces....<BR>
<BR>
And the rest could be history.<BR>
<BR>
I for one sure hope the PQ NEVER succeeds. They'd be cutting their nose off<BR>
despite their face.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:44:15 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship re-payments<BR>
<BR>
At 11:26 AM 12/18/99 +1100, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>>Michel Vaillancourt wrote:<BR>
        Actually, no, I responded to the below questions....<BR>
<BR>
>> How are starship payments figured? In the book it says (from memory...)<BR>
>its<BR>
>> 20% down payment plus 1/240th every month for 480 months giving a total<BR>
>> return of 240% to the bank.<BR>
<BR>
        All further answers are IMHO, IMTU...<BR>
<BR>
>    Are these paid on the same world as the bank which funded the loan is?<BR>
<BR>
        To be frank, I've never worried about it.  <gasp>  Yeah, I know.<BR>
Since I drive the internal workings of the TNEC millieu on the gold/<BR>
platinum exchange system, really what the ship owner is doing is "buying" an<BR>
electronic purchase marker for the equivalent value of bullion, with<BR>
instructions to transfer same to the bank extending the loan.<BR>
<BR>
>If your Free Trader is away speculating from the ships/banks homeworld and<BR>
>there isn't enough money in the bank are you automatically assumed to have<BR>
>skipped? <BR>
<BR>
        Like most modern banks, a simple communique of intentions will keep<BR>
the hounds in the kennel.  For instance, my own personal bank will defer one<BR>
*month* of payments on all my loans with them once a year, with no penalty<BR>
to me (except the accumulation of interest).  Why?  Simple...  its better<BR>
for them than having to sell the loan at $0.50/ $1.00 to a collections<BR>
company.  All I need to do is call and give them a reasonable reason.<BR>
        This is the interesting bit...  IMTU, collections firms exist.  You<BR>
skip a couple of payments, and in an area the size of the TNEC millieu, it<BR>
doesn't take long for that information to get out.  A Collections/<BR>
Privateering firm buys the loan from the bank and comes looking for you...<BR>
information propogation via couriered data-net means that eventually,<BR>
someone will want to collect the KCr100 reward on "information leading to<BR>
the aprehension"...  say, the tech who was plugging the fuel lines into your<BR>
ship at the starport...<BR>
        So, the C&P firm pays MCr18 for the rights to the loan on the<BR>
Type-A, MCr1 in rewards to various sources who let them know where to find<BR>
the runaways, MCr5 in crew and ship costs for its own personell to find the<BR>
skip and pockets the balance of MCr12.5.<BR>
        Twelve and a half million in cash is a pretty strong motivator to<BR>
find a skipping ship.  It also means that the skipping crew *knows* that<BR>
everywhere they go, *someone* will talk, making for an arrow pointing at<BR>
them.  They eventually *will* get caught...  unless they flee Known Space<BR>
for whatever is beyond the Fringe...<BR>
<BR>
>Can the original loan be used to finance another ship if you want<BR>
>to trade up? I'm glad I always play scouts.<BR>
<BR>
        Again, I use a RealWorld(tm) equity model....  how many payments<BR>
have you made, divided by three is the amount of equity in the loan that can<BR>
be use to setup the downpayment on the next ship and then you can sell your<BR>
existing vessel to pay off the current loan.  As well, tech upgrades,<BR>
mid-life refits, and that sort of thing can be paid for by cashing out<BR>
whatever equity is in the loan.<BR>
        The 100-year-old tramp with a perpetual loan and the finest weapons<BR>
and electonics suite in the Terran Sphere isn't far-fetched this way...  <BR>
<BR>
>    Jim L.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
        Nice to see you on this side of the show, Jim.  I miss your posts on<BR>
the CPML....<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	"Reality Error in Progress....<BR>
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:<BR>
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"<BR>
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:04:58 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship re-payments<BR>
<BR>
>        Nice to see you on this side of the show, Jim.  I miss your posts<BR>
on<BR>
>the CPML....<BR>
><BR>
>        --Michel<BR>
<BR>
    Just got sick of the constant flame wars, I was thinking of<BR>
resubscribing if Largo would have me back.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:25:02 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
On 17 Dec 99, at 18:31, David L. Pulver wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> One of the triggers, sure. But historical data (wills, etc.) shows that US<BR>
> citizens did not care much about guns after the revolution -- circa 1800,<BR>
> militias were in a sorry state, most citizens did not own a working gun,<BR>
> etc.  They cared about the confiscation of weaponry because they were<BR>
> preparing for armed insurrection.<BR>
<BR>
And if anyone needs further evidence of the sorry state of the US <BR>
militas, just have a look at the shambles known as the 1812 war.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:33:15 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
On 17 Dec 99, at 16:48, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On the other hand, because the "effective dose" of LSD is *so* small, most<BR>
> of the folks producing it "got away with" simply *appalling* lab<BR>
> technique. Most acid contained impurities that would have been *fatal* if<BR>
> the required dose was anywhere *near* that of most other drugs. <BR>
> <BR>
> So it's quite possible that the "brown acid" had so *really* nasty<BR>
> contaminants, or had *gotten* contaminated by something nasty.<BR>
<BR>
They also would've been helped by the fact that LSD's LD50 is <BR>
enormously higher than its ED50, so dangerous derivatives (not that I <BR>
can think of any off-hand) would also be created in very minute <BR>
quantities.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:59:30 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
Actually, how the Union occurs is unstated as it's not the focus of the<BR>
game.  However, i figure the Canadians got so sick of hearing us Yanks<BR>
bellyache about how awful our Presidents are that they offered us a Union.<BR>
<BR>
Considering that Canadian provinces have the powers that individual States<BR>
used to have, this seems like a good conservative tonic.  The socialized<BR>
medicine thing would have to go, however.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 03:01 PM 12/17/99 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>>I've written a space combat game the history of which has combined USA and<BR>
>>Canada into the Union of North America.  How would Canadians feal about<BR>
>>that?  Americans?  Would it help that in 2080 the president-elect from<BR>
>>Toronto gives a "before the decade is out" speech<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
>        I presume there was an invasion?  I can't see it happening<BR>
>voluntarily...  Most Canadians are very quick to say they aren't<BR>
Americans....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:59:20 -0800<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
Eric Henry wrote:<BR>
> I've written a space combat game the history of which has combined USA and<BR>
> Canada into the Union of North America.  How would Canadians feal about<BR>
> that?  Americans?  Would it help that in 2080 the president-elect from<BR>
> Toronto gives a "before the decade is out" speech<BR>
<BR>
ITYM "Organization of North American Nations", or ONAN. See David <BR>
Foster Wallace's _Infinite_Jest_ for a satiric look at the results.<BR>
<BR>
Hell, everyone go read _Infinite_Jest_ just so I have someone to <BR>
talk to.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell "ITYM _Infinite_Book_" B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:01:12 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
This one's for both Kenji and Keith:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Kenji Schwarz<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Maybe you have more ethical dealers in PA, but -- I'm dealing<BR>
> >PURELY withhearsay, here, you understand -- out West you're<BR>
> >LUCKY if it gets cut with PCP or Draino.<BR>
><BR>
> From: Keith Johnson<BR>
><BR>
> Around Sacramento (the meth capitol of the world), LSD is usually<BR>
>cut with  speed.<BR>
<BR>
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned strychnine yet.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, there are a few different reasons to cut drugs. It's most common<BR>
with heroin and cocaine because the purity and quality of those drugs vary<BR>
immensely. Some will cut cocaine and heroin to keep the dosages low, and<BR>
this can actually be beneficial[1]. In addition, since these drugs are sold<BR>
in volume, cutting a drug with another substance can make a supply last<BR>
longer. Cocaine is usually much more expensive than methampthetamines, for<BR>
example, so cocaine is frequently cut with speed.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, some drugs are laced with other drugs on purpose.<BR>
Marijuana is frequently laced with PCP, and sometimes crack cocaine. Heroin<BR>
and speed are sometimes mixed together as well.<BR>
<BR>
None of these reasons apply to LSD, however. The average dosage of LSD today<BR>
is about 90 - 120 *micrograms*. A crystal of concentrated LSD the size of<BR>
the tip of a thumb is enough to manufacture many,  many doses. It goes<BR>
without saying that acid is not a "volume" drug, and as such there's no real<BR>
reason to cut acid with anything for economic gain, nor to keep the dosage<BR>
low. LSD takes a while to take effect, if you want to rip somebody off, it's<BR>
cheaper and easier to just sell "blank" pieces of blotter paper. Doses of<BR>
LSD are usually eye-dropped onto blotter paper. You would feel nothing if<BR>
the same amount of speed, or just about any other drug, was dropped onto the<BR>
same blotter paper. Other methods of taking LSD are also physically small.<BR>
"Microdots" are just a little bit bigger than the enamel head on an<BR>
old-fashioned pin and "geltabs" are a little smaller than a pencil eraser,<BR>
and both forms are made up of substances which are far cheaper than anything<BR>
anybody would want to cut LSD with.<BR>
<BR>
In the mid-60s, it was common for LSD to be sold in the form of larger<BR>
tablets, so it *was* possible, and common, for LSD to be cut and laced with<BR>
other drugs for different reasons.<BR>
<BR>
This might be part of the reason why people go on to say that LSD is cut<BR>
with other substances. I don't think so. Being interested in folklore, which<BR>
is why I have the amount of knowledge on the subject that I do, I believe<BR>
that there's a much simpler explanation:<BR>
<BR>
The onset of an LSD trip, especially when the hit ingested was "dirty"<BR>
(either degraded by heat or poorly manufactured) is marked by a tightening<BR>
of the muscles (especially in the jaws, back and neck) as well as mild<BR>
stomach discomfort. In addition, LSD heightens sensory impressions, so most<BR>
people feel a pronounced, but not overly unpleasant soreness or at the base<BR>
of their back. The length of time<BR>
that it takes for a hit to take effect is between about a half hour and an<BR>
hour or so, so people who have taken acid are usually very anxious for any<BR>
number of reasons.<BR>
<BR>
The effects of speed are somewhat similar, but considerably more pronounced,<BR>
so many people somewhat naturally assume that LSD is cut with speed.<BR>
Strychnine is thought to cause similar symptoms, so that substance is<BR>
commonly thought to be a culprit as well.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone who has even a little knowledge of the drug and the dosages involved<BR>
(and such people are vanishingly rare among acid users) will quickly realize<BR>
that cutting LSD with anything makes no sense, and even if it was cut, the<BR>
dosage of the other drug would not be nearly that pronounced. In response,<BR>
in the acid renaissance of the late 80s and early 90s, there arose the<BR>
notion that acid must be cut with a small amount of speed or strychnine to<BR>
make it "stick" to the blotter paper. That's bunk, though, since blotter<BR>
paper will absorb LSD when it is mixed with none other than common, everyday<BR>
water.<BR>
<BR>
Ach, my apologies for the long post.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: I remember when I first got on the list there was fast drug, slow<BR>
drug and "drug drug". Whatever happened to "drug drug"? How about psi-drugs,<BR>
do they merely boost psionic abilities, or are there other side effects? In<BR>
my Traveller Universe (in this respect strongly<BR>
influenced by the comic book version of Akira), some psi-drugs are also<BR>
powerful hallucinogens, and some others have various other effects. I've<BR>
always been fond of putting drugs of different sorts into my Traveller<BR>
campaigns, but maybe it's the cyberpunk in me.<BR>
<BR>
[1] Here in Philly a few years back there were a rash of deaths as a very<BR>
powerful and uncut heroin made it onto the market. Quite a few people died<BR>
over the course of a week or so. Even old, long term junkies died, which is<BR>
usually pretty rare since their tolerance is usually extremely high.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:13:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Nominations:<BR>
><BR>
> Earth is on the list, of course.  The rosettes in Gateway Quadrant (canon or<BR>
> not).  The royal palace. <BR>
<BR>
> Is there a black hole in known space? <BR>
<BR>
Unlikely. It'd have to be *really* old. Otherwise it'd be notable for<BR>
the sector it was in being mostly "dead" or damaged worlds due to the<BR>
supernova that created the black hole. As I recall, being within a<BR>
dozen parsecs of a supernova would be *really* bad news for your planet.<BR>
<BR>
There'd also be this rather noticeable nebula (the expanding gases from<BR>
the supernova) filling most of the sector. <BR>
<BR>
> A spectacular quasar? <BR>
<BR>
Quasars are found in the *early* universe and are basicly galaxies with<BR>
cores so active that nothing could live in the galaxy. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1521<BR>
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